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Kono/PA Don't Want To Do Trench/Tunnel Run Missions Anymore, But Feel Obligated To Put Them in AC7 Because of AC Fans


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#21
Hue

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Trying to hit max speed on Tunnel Vision was pretty fun though.

They should just put Tunnel Vision in AC7. Like 95% of the playerbase thinks AC4 was the first game in the series, so it's not like they'd recognise it.

 

Tunnel Vision is only fun under these two conditions:

 

1. Max speed

2. Blackbird

 

That is all. Even though Tunnel Vision is the best tunnel mission for me, I would prefer a more complex system of tunnels kind of like the ones you'd see in Descent.


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#22
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This isn't a bad thing in itself for me, tunnel and canyon missions aren't bothersome for me if I can run them as I please (daily reminder Final Option is the worst mission in Ace Combat history). The problem is, of course, the notion they're yielding to the fanbase, with all the consequences you can imagine, and one perhaps less obvious: that they'll yield, or use as an excuse, the *segment* of the fanbase they please. Kono is directing this game and he's well known to prefer static mission design and set pieces to allow for irrelevant plot injections mid-mission. And with all the rabid (and dumb) AC5 fans around, Kono and PA will be quick to see them as fair reason do that shit all. Over. Again.

 

I would add tunnel/canyon missions could be made vastly more interesting my not making them exclusively obstacle courses. They've dabbled around with this in the past, with a few AA guns and head-on fighters, Rena in the Geofront and Ofnir in that canyon, but they're all very light attempts. The Valley of Kings is the closest to an actual canyon BATTLE. I get the feeling they're too afraid of doing that, that such a mission would only be suitable for veterans, which... is probably true, but fuck's sake, there's potential there.


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#23
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I personally like the idea of plot unfolding mid-mission and being reflected in mission design; the issue with AC5 was that the enemy counts were far too low and scripted to give the levels much replayabillity. I think ACAH would have been much better had it not been for the game design being built around CRA (shittier missile tracking/gunsight, unnatural enemy grouping, fucking TGT_Leads). Kono himself admitted in the retrospective Gamesradar ran a bit after AC6's announcement:
 
 
 

The structured story constrained the player more than we originally thought it would. It's always difficult to strike a balance between gameplay and story, but I think we should have given the player a little more freedom. However, as soon as you do, costs begin to skyrocket, so it's always a difficult decision to make.[/size]

FWIW, I think ACZ struck a better balance, but I'd be keen to see it done with a broader scope.

Edited by Scherzo, 21 June 2016 - 08:14 PM.

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#24
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 The Valley of Kings is the closest to an actual canyon BATTLE. I get the feeling they're too afraid of doing that, that such a mission would only be suitable for veterans, which... is probably true, but fuck's sake, there's potential there.

 

They could just make a mission like that late game, like how they did with Valley of Kings in Zero. It's the penultimate mission and it certainly shows. Surely by that point, any players new to the series would have gotten good enough at the game to handle it.


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#25
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Tunnels are not to bad, but I agree with what was previously mentioned. Long and straight is ridiculously boring and uneventful. I'd prefer them being a bit more winding myself, allowing for more player base skill, and speed. The only way I can think of max speed is a realistic time countdown clock that isn't 5 minutes longer than it needs to be (can be subject to difficulty settings). This in turn is forcing the player to actually light the burners and freaking go. Another possibility is the facility or whatever it is, is blowing up around you in which case it would be just like the Maw from Halo but flipping fighter jets! And being chased by enemies!, SU-37s, or the new ADFX- Morgan variant. Or from the trailer a whole bunch of those UAV things would be more likely (holding out for the Morgan though)

 

The problem with Tunnels is that they are cliche at this point, and to be perfectly honest I'm not sure what exactly would please everyone for a final mission. I'd have to say that ACZ made me feel like a badass the most at the ending, very well paced story leading up to the Dogfight with Pixy.

 

The thing I can easily see is that they play off the tunnel thing but incorporate a whole bunch of other variables. As up till now once you get in the tunnel is was pretty much just flying, shoot the nuclear missile, fly out.


Edited by Ace 117, 25 June 2016 - 02:46 PM.

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#26
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*snip*

 

Hey, thought the endgame tunnel in Ace Combat 5 was perfectly challenging.

 

Of course it's probably the only challenging long, straight tunnel in-game, but


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#27
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Hey, thought the endgame tunnel in Ace Combat 5 was perfectly challenging.

 

Of course it's probably the only challenging long, straight tunnel in-game, but

 

If only you didn't have to restart a massive autoscroller segment every single time you crash. This is like stabbing your own legs every time you stumble during a 2 hour marathon.


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#28
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If only you didn't have to restart a massive autoscroller segment every single time you crash. This is like stabbing your own legs every time you stumble during a 2 hour marathon.

 

I think Kono's mission design framework was even worse before the addition of checkpoints. Not only did you have to repeat the tunnel again, you had to do several minutes of unchallenging but tedious ground pounding to open up the facility, plus even before that you have to sit through the intro that's at least a minute long, even if you skip all the cutscenes.


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#29
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I think Kono's mission design framework was even worse before the addition of checkpoints. Not only did you have to repeat the tunnel again, you had to do several minutes of unchallenging but tedious ground pounding to open up the facility, plus even before that you have to sit through the intro that's at least a minute long, even if you skip all the cutscenes.

 

I swear, were it not for the tunnel and atmosphere being decent it would join any long desert mission+Ancient Walls in the list of worst Ace Combat missions. What scares me is that there's possibly more badly designed missions in AC 5 out of all PS2 titles.


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#30
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I swear, were it not for the tunnel and atmosphere being decent it would join any long desert mission+Ancient Walls in the list of worst Ace Combat missions. What scares me is that there's possibly more badly designed missions in AC 5 out of all PS2 titles.

 

 

I think Whiskey Corridor is actually pretty cool; the issue with the Desert ___ missions in AC5 is that you often have to wait for new pop up targets before you do anything.

 

Also the dogfighting in ACES is pretty dece, if I remember correctly. Entirely optional, but I remember it being fun.


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#31
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What scares me is that there's possibly more badly designed missions in AC 5 out of all PS2 titles.

 

Not just a possibility, it's a fact. : )


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#32
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I think Whiskey Corridor is actually pretty cool; the issue with the Desert ___ missions in AC5 is that you often have to wait for new pop up targets before you do anything.

 

Also the dogfighting in ACES is pretty dece, if I remember correctly. Entirely optional, but I remember it being fun.

 

I don't know, these desert missions are just too long and drawn out for me. Now I know that some people like that aspect, but for me it just bores me considering Ace Combat mechanics are pretty simple unlike realistic flight sims that do justify the drawn out nature. Maybe it's because AC 5 had this brilliant concept of those same very long missions but WITHOUT RETURN LINES. That is a horrid decision. I much prefer how ACZ handled these sorts of missions by giving a large score count. That way, it is actually possible to shorten the length of the mission.

 

Not just a possibility, it's a fact. : )

 

How did it even become so popular


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#33
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How did it even become so popular

 

CGI cutscenes


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#34
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CGI cutscenes

 

And here I thought it was mainly the graphics. AC 5 looked great for a PS 2 title.


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#35
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How did it even become so popular


A combination of "muh Choppper feels" and CAN YOU TAKE IT ALL AWAY!
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#36
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It's popular because most people can't tell quality gameplay if it hit them in the face (not something that's limited to AC - just look at the huge success of all those CINEMATIC EXPERIENCE games with mediocre gameplay). Also all the people who only play the campaign once, and all the people whose first AC was AC5, and all the people who are just bad and AC5 caters to them... I could probably go on.


Edited by PositronCannon, 26 June 2016 - 07:53 PM.

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#37
Scherzo

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It's popular because most people can't tell quality gameplay if it hit them in the face (not something that's limited to AC - just look at the huge success of all those CINEMATIC EXPERIENCE games with mediocre gameplay). Also all the people who only play the campaign once, and all the people whose first AC was AC5, and all the people who are just bad and AC5 caters to them... I could probably go on.

 

I mean, for it's time AC5 was unique for bringing a 'cinematic experience' to dog-fighting games, and it was riding off the success of AC04 which is still the best selling AC game ever. If AC5's mission design were looser, it'd been a much better game. I think in general something akin to ACZ's pacing would be appropriate (Open missions mixed in with more scripted, narrative focused ones).

 

(I also think AC5 was aimed at dumb teenage weebs who'd soak up all 'the feels' and not realize the story was utterly dreadful and stolen from 'The Sum of All Fears')


Edited by Scherzo, 26 June 2016 - 11:33 PM.

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#38
Danny

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does anyone actually speak dutch here so they can confirm this is what's actually being said?


I am Dutch. It basically says, the fans love the tunnel style missions but every time we make a unique style mission we try not to repeat it. But the fans tell us they really love them so who are we to ignore that?
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#39
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The problem is that the gameplay has become stale and frankly, dated in many aspects. Assault Horizon was the attempt to fix this, but everything new they added was worse and everything that could have been revamped was left alone. They copied concepts from infantry/personal based games and implemented it into a flight game. The result was disastrous. I still play AC4/Z and a bit of 5 every now and then, but it is hard to do make a unique gameplay experience if they do not expand upon characteristics inherent to military aviation. Gameplay, if altered, must be done in a way which fits within the theme and technical aspects of military aircraft.

 

I've brought up ideas before, even posted them here. Remove the universal all targetting "missile" with dedicated weapons. Have a large number of weapons, even loadout customization. All of a sudden that F-15C becomes near useless for A2G and that A-10 can carry an excellent variety of A2G weapons all at once. They start to fill their own niche. Different weapons for different tasks: HARMs for SAMs and ground radars, anti tank missiles (quicker reload time) for lower damage. Anti ship missiles for larger amounts of damage, longer range, long reload time. Different weapons for different targets. Many possibilities.

 

Make enemy ground radars and AWACS useful; if they're active they can vector in enemy fighters from further distances making life a pain for players. It makes hitting high value targets more worthwhile than gaining some extra points.

 

And for multiplayer give realistic loadouts. 60-70 missiles for MP just turns into a missile spamming contest.

 

These are just some ideas I'd like to see in a future Ace Combat or similar game. I'll still get AC7 regardless, but even I am getting a bit tired of the same core gameplay which has been unchanged since 2001. I think the problem is the average gamer is too stupid to take the time to learn about the subject, and having to figure out what different types of weapons work best for what will be a roadblock to new players. People put a lot of time into learning game mechanics if the subject matter is well covered, such as fantasy RPGs or 1st/3rd person shooters but they do not like to be challenged by new concepts.

 


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#40
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The problem is that the gameplay has become stale and frankly, dated in many aspects. Assault Horizon was the attempt to fix this, but everything new they added was worse and everything that could have been revamped was left alone. They copied concepts from infantry/personal based games and implemented it into a flight game. The result was disastrous. I still play AC4/Z and a bit of 5 every now and then, but it is hard to do make a unique gameplay experience if they do not expand upon characteristics inherent to military aviation. Gameplay, if altered, must be done in a way which fits within the theme and technical aspects of military aircraft.

 

I've brought up ideas before, even posted them here. Remove the universal all targetting "missile" with dedicated weapons. Have a large number of weapons, even loadout customization. All of a sudden that F-15C becomes near useless for A2G and that A-10 can carry an excellent variety of A2G weapons all at once. They start to fill their own niche. Different weapons for different tasks: HARMs for SAMs and ground radars, anti tank missiles (quicker reload time) for lower damage. Anti ship missiles for larger amounts of damage, longer range, long reload time. Different weapons for different targets. Many possibilities.

 

Make enemy ground radars and AWACS useful; if they're active they can vector in enemy fighters from further distances making life a pain for players. It makes hitting high value targets more worthwhile than gaining some extra points.

 

And for multiplayer give realistic loadouts. 60-70 missiles for MP just turns into a missile spamming contest.

 

These are just some ideas I'd like to see in a future Ace Combat or similar game. I'll still get AC7 regardless, but even I am getting a bit tired of the same core gameplay which has been unchanged since 2001. I think the problem is the average gamer is too stupid to take the time to learn about the subject, and having to figure out what different types of weapons work best for what will be a roadblock to new players. People put a lot of time into learning game mechanics if the subject matter is well covered, such as fantasy RPGs or 1st/3rd person shooters but they do not like to be challenged by new concepts.

 

the answer is to simply go back to ace combat 3 mechanics and start from there


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